Ted, Welcome back to the Lake.

Watertiger, Welcome back! and thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.

Thanks, Bev. And I want to extend my thanks, as well, to Ted for writing this book.

My first question to Ted is this: How did you NOT have an aneurysm while writing this book? I was so angry by the end of it that I thought my head would explode. ;-)

Thanks, Bev, it’s awesome to be back. Thanks for inviting me. And thanks, watertiger!

Good afternoon Ted and Watertiger and welcome back to the Lake!

Ted, is there any hope at all?

Ha. I’ve been angry about the state of the American police state for a long time before Obama came along. This is really an argument directed toward those who continue to defend the President, and by extension the two-party system, despite its countless crimes of action and inaction against its own people and those overseas. Quit hoping for this dysfunctional system to fix itself.

Hi Ted, Hi wt

So where do we go from here?
I feel such a fool, I was so happy at the Inauguration – and now – despondency reigns.

For our new readers/commenters:

To follow along, you will have to refresh your browser:
PC = F5 key, MAC = Command+R keys

If you want to ask a question – just type it in the Leave Your Response box & Submit Comment.


If you are responding to a comment – use the Reply button under the number, then type your response in the box, Submit Comment.

The Book of Obama takes us back to the President’s emergence as a national figure in 2004, and lays out a quasilegal argument that he was always a conservative. Hell, he was to the right of Clinton and Edwards in the 2008 primaries. And he was an acolyte of the Democratic Leadership Council.

How do you defend against the tribalism on the Left? We see it so clearly on the Right, yet those who continue to push for more of the same from Obama don’t seem to be able to comprehend that he’s no better than the system itself.

Ted, do you cover any of the gerrymandering in Illinois?

Ha. I’ve been angry about the state of the American police state for a long time before Obama came along. This is really an argument directed toward those who continue to defend the President, and by extension the two-party system, despite its countless crimes of action and inaction against its own people and those overseas. Quit hoping for this dysfunctional system to fix itself.

The Book of Obama takes us back to the President’s emergence as a national figure in 2004, and lays out a quasilegal argument that he was always a conservative. Hell, he was to the right of Clinton and Edwards in the 2008 primaries. And he was an acolyte of the Democratic Leadership Council.

Politics isn’t about elections every 2 to 4 years. It’s about what you talk about with your neighbors, friends and—if you still have a job—coworkers. Stop watching sports, chuck the Wii, and hit the streets. They know that stuff in Tunisia and Egypt and Syria—why not us?

I’ve been shouting about it. I don’t know what else to do. That’s what I do. The American people usually see reason after moments of madness—say, the McCarthy and post-9/11 eras. But it takes a long time. I wish it would be quicker. We’re in trouble.

One of the first cartoons in The Book of Obama is titled “At Last: America United”. A man and a woman face each other — the man says, “I hate Obama because he’s a Socialist.” The woman replies, “I hate him cuz he’s not.” It seems an apt metaphor for the rot that our political system has become. How do we get beyond it?

No. No doubt, Obama is corrupt. All politicians are. For more in-depth coverage of that and similar election hijacking shenanigans, I recommend Greg Palast, with whom I am doing a book that comes out shortly.

We have to stop equating Democrats, Republicans, and the horse race as politics. They’re not.

uhm,what was our other choice HRC?

One contributor here (Dr Murphy) reminded us all, very early on, that Obama was a Hamilton Project acolyte, cementing his bona fides with the Pete Peterson gang. Of course, even later but before the convention, many of us looked askance at his broken FISA-filibuster promise.

But, jeez, by that point, what were our option? Sorta like right now.

Ted, do you consider yourself a revolutionary? Do you think the system needs tearing right down to its foundation, or simply to the studs? Can anything be salvaged, and how does that dictate our best course?

Can’t wait to read this book! (hi, WT!)

Electoral politics is an undignified spectacle. Obviously they effect our lives. But never positively. Not any more. The system is too ossified for that.

Politics isn’t about elections every 2 to 4 years. It’s about what you talk about with your neighbors, friends and—if you still have a job—coworkers. Stop watching sports, chuck the Wii, and hit the streets. They know that stuff in Tunisia and Egypt and Syria—why not us?

So, to read between the lines of the book I haven’t read, bottom-up citizen action could be more effective than hoping for trickle-down political change?

Teddy, Ted does a terrific job of delineating Obama’s conservative credentials in this book. As I noted, it’s infuriating in its clarity.

Yes, Teddy, that is the situation with Obama. He would never have been allowed to come to power had he not an acolyte of the powers to be. No one who defends the people, even to a slight extent, can be allowed to come to power at this point. Back in 1933, that was different with FDR. The system was still reformable. That just isn’t the case now.

I do consider myself a revolutionary, because there simply isn’t any other alternative, and the planet is dying so fast that we just don’t have time to wait anymore to take over the Democratic Party from the left. Do we have 40 years? No.

well guess i will have to email my questions to Ted

my comments to Ted are not appearing

Hi Helena,

Yes, you can read between the lines that you haven’t read, that is the situation. Bottom up citizen action has always accomplished much more than electoral politics from the top. This is especially true during a time of economic political and social crisis, as we face now.

There was a time, when things weren’t so bad, that it made logical sense to repeatedly vote for the Democratic over the Republican candidate. But that just simply isn’t the case anymore. Now all those short-term decisions have added up. And we face a long term decision. Not just this fall, all the time.

Why?

Our only other choice was HRC,so hope was just hope after all

Anyone who thinks Rielle Hunter was in that hotel bar coincidentally is welcome to purchase a bridge to Brooklyn I have the title to somewhere around here. Edwards’ “Two Americas” speech was dangerous to the PTB… and yet he was probably a made man as well.

The PTB were ready to rollout their new biracial product. The Edwards takedown was real.

Try again

But then how do you explain that with few exceptions nearly every attempt to “change the system” IE revolution, from ours onward, has eventually resulted in pretty much the same thing that the people started out with but with a different coat of paint as it were.

Ted, the media are so inextricably entwined with the political class — just look at how they reported stories about the Occupy Movement (unwashed hippies in drum circles). Any ideas on how to break that cycle? I mean, besides viral videos of cops beating the crap out of unarmed protesters – although that helped tremendously…

now they are,i have had this trouble in the past,BIG fan of yours,seems we have royalty in this country,you cant get rid of the same names,and same faces,and families,no new ideas ever come to the forefront

Some of us knew his duplicity in 2006 when he trained through Connecticut without stopping to campaign with Ned Lamont. And “let Ned use his list” — once, and much too late to reach voters about JoeLie’s lies.

Can we avoid being snookered again? Can we afford another presidential cycle like the last one in 2008? What do the PTB have on Eliz Warren to keep her down in 2016?

I’m not particularly partial to conspiracy theories, but John Edwards does strike me as the kind of man who was just dangerous enough to the system, but he was not allowed to get any oxygen. I wouldn’t say Rielle Hunter was a honey trap. But, I do think that the media did not give Edwards the kind of coverage that they gave to Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. In fact there was a comprehensive study by Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting that proves that.

In addition O’s conservative credentials is his corporate shilling. In a mining & manufacturing lobby email newsletter I received prior to the 2008 campaign, it highlighted Senator Obama’s support for “clean coal.” I believe him to smart to believe in such fairy tales, so it must be the money whispering in his ear.

the one that really scared em,was Dr.Dean

I love that question.

As Mao said, fail. Fail again. Fail again better. Just because capitalism has never worked right, doesn’t mean that we have given up on it entirely. Although we should have. We have continued to try to change the system as long as there have been oppressed people going back to the slave revolts against the Egyptians and going through the Warsaw ghetto uprising and onto Tahrir Square today. We need to stop giving up hope. Hope and change are not a campaign slogan. They belong to us. They are the human dream.

And his own carelessness surely made him risky, also. Sad to say.

Sybil Edmonds said yesterday,he,and his staff were awful to deal with

No, we really cannot avoid getting snickered again, not as long as we keep voting, or – to be precise – to think that voting matters.

By all means, vote, volunteer for Obama, donate money to his campaign. But don’t make the mistake of thinking that it makes any difference. It does not. It will not. We need something more.

Oh, absolutely. If it smells like a duck…

I always liked Howard Dean. A real fighter. But look at what they did to him. He really could have defeated George W. Bush. But the media did not allow him to come to power. The media did not allow him to become the Democratic nominee. The media worked with the Democratic National Committee in order to sideline him. Anyone dangerous, anyone really good, anyone even a little good, we’ll never be allowed to rise to high office under the system.

So Ted, what effect do you think the whole Occupy thing had on the PTB, if any?

I don’t know about that. I don’t think that Howard Dean was careless, you know the whole Dean Scream thing was a complete scam. I assume pretty much everyone here knows that.

And he is beholden to Nukleon or some such corporate entity that builds/ operates facilities just like the one in Japan (which we hear so little about these days!)

Three meals away from a revolution?

Ted ,sadlyyes,he knew about,health care,and the public face of Public Health…teh important

I think the Cccupy Wall Street movement has been very very frightening to the powers that be. It is all the more notable since they really haven’t accomplished much at all. But this is the first time the people took to the streets in a serious and meaningful way since the 1960s. They know that if we keep doing this, if we keep pressuring them, we will prevail. Because quite simply there are a lot more of us than there are of them, and we are right, and they are wrong, and they deserve to be in prison.

…We need to stop giving up hope. Hope and change are not a campaign slogan. They belong to us. They are the human dream.

Aloha, Ted and Water Tiger…!

That is exactly why I occupy…! I share your disgust in the sheer apathy of Americans in not taking to the streets like in Athens, Cairo, Montreal, etc…!

Or maybe we need to continuously pay attention to what is going on and keep working on maintaining what we do get. Our Every Minute ZEN as it were.

Mebbe.

Example: 10,000 Protest Wal-Mart in Los Angeles

But look what’s happened with Dean: first he was shilling for ACA; now he’s full-bore for Obama’s re-election.

Does Nebraska’s Bob Kerrey bring a fire in the belly for his return?

I have a theory, which I call Rall’s theorem. And what it says is, the more that someone or something says that they are something – like an adjective or adverb – the less likely they are actually to be that thing. For example, someone who volunteers that they tip well is usually cheap. Well, look at the United States, the land of the free and the brave. We are neither. But it is not too late for us to get off our butts, get the street, confront the goons, and demand what is rightfully ours.

Well, yes, he got corrupted. Those are your options: sell out, or be marginalized. (cough cough)

i think Murkans are medicated,and soothed by sports and reality teebee,they cant see the Tsunami coming

CTuttle!

I think that people need to be pushed to the point where they have nothing left to lose before they’ll hit the streets. Ted provides examples of just how despairing people get before they do drastic things, such as suicide.

Oh, Lord…zzzzzzz

he got the memo,imo

I’m not sure they ever really took the whole thing all that seriously. IMO, It would have to take something a whole lot more organized and focused to really scare them. We’re dealing with some very arrogant and very dangerous characters these days. I think if they really thought we were becoming a threat they’d send in the Nat’l guard like they did in the 60′s during the up risings in the cities after King’s assassination.

LOL! Ask the folks at the New School.

Oh, absolutely — the lack of coverage hindered his progress completely, but it also (oddly?!) meant that Legacy Media didn’t pick up The Enquirer stories either. They seemed determined to stop Johnny in any number of ways: no coverage; waiting for the big scandal to break later should he sneak in as the nominee; using photos that made him look non-presidential (check out galleries of him versus the “serious young man” Obama was from the beginning), touting Hillary’s inevitability et al.

Which makes me think the honey pot isn’t too farfetched; remember how she says Johnny told her there were “lots of other women?” I think the end of that sentence is “….throwing themselves at me.”

Obama was necessary; the PTB were scared of Johnny and weren’t sure Hill would stay bought, especially around health care and finance. The two biggies wanted Obama and promised him he’d get the Ring if he went along. Which he was not uninclined to do!

But my goddess, drones and assassinations and unindicted bankers/Bushies notwithstanding, we’ve simply got to see him re-elected or face the Republic of Gilead Moroni, a shining city on a hill. Mitt’s truly terrifying.

And don’t give me any “progressives like Nancy Pelosi will stand up to Mitt in ways they won’t stand up to Obama!” It is to laugh.

never anybody new,or ungroomed by the PTB…(Plantation owners)

Certainly, that is what Ché Guevara and Lennon and Marx thought. And I think they were just about right. Ché Guevara said that there would never be a revolution until the people feel that they have exercised all of their options under the Constitution of the enemy regime. Obviously that still was not the situation here. Way too many people still have hope in this very imperfect constitution of ours. Not to mention our ridiculous election system. But, things are going to move faster than they have in the past. The real unemployment rate is about 22 to 23%, coupled with raging inflation of 10 to 11% the unofficial but accurate rate, so we’ve never seen an economy like this before.

Elites everywhere fear only one thing, as do their beholden governments: people in the streets.

Ted, thanks for visiting us.

I can already tell, by your comment, that this shall be a thoroughly enjoyable Book Salon, even though I must soon leave to take my youngest to choir practice.

DW

Funny how John Edwards has been banned from public life yet Newt Gingrich was allowed to be taken seriously as a Republican presidential candidate this year.

You funny lady.

Monday and Tuesday, myself and our local Occupy will be ‘occupying’ our County Council, we have their attention and we’re getting results from our direct actions…!

Your so right. Until, the Planet really starts to kick the living shit out of us NOTHING is going to be done. Forget the system it’s way too far gone at this pt. to reform without some really serious shit hitting the fan.

If just seems to me that since Eisenhower the presidential elections have been a choice between two staged characters. Like a game show. Lets Make A (presidential) Deal. Or Who Do You Trust. Or some such.

Well, Seaglass, obviously they’re not that terrified of the Cccupy Wall Street movement yet. However, it takes a while before the authorities really get scared. And one of the advantages of a nonviolent movements like Occupy is that it doesn’t bring down the wrath of the state immediately. In the long run of course things will have to change, but we are a long way from that. Look at what happened in Egypt, or what didn’t happen in Egypt, the generals are still in charge. Oppression continues. The bad guys won’t leave without violence.

Ha, not so funny.

IOKAYIYAR……rinse lather ,repeat

I’ve been suggesting Margaret Atwood’s “Oryx and Crake” to people if they want to see what a future of corporate-driven politics will amount to.

She’s always excellent.

Not enough people lacking bread. Not enough people hungry.

Probably not. Soon.

Bingo!!!

DW

Are you watching the same planet I am?

We need people to wake up to this kicking the living shit out of us that is currently happening.

the pills are in our water systems,even the fish are medicated,read it somewhere

Teflon Newt!

Which is why they make sure not to tell us when people (at least those who back progressive causes) are in the streets. Remember the Cone of Silence they threw over the immigration rallies that literally drew hundreds of thousands at a shot in LA and New York and other big cities a few years ago? Yet have six Koch-funded Tea Partiers get together under a streetlamp and the establishment media sends out every reporter available to cover them.

Yessss. Four times, I’ve read that one. Mebbe time for it again.

food stamps,hide street scenes,like soup and bread lines

Such is the nature of the system. So don’t put up with it, much less believe in it.

How soon do you imagine, Ted, a decade? Less?

And, once “realization” strikes, how long until unified action may follow, that is the larger question.

DW

Just wait until the scheduled budget cuts to SNAP come about, with 1 in 7 Americans already receiving them…!

People who live in their cars now, and people who go to health-care fairs now, and people who apply for food stamps for their kids now, are ASHAMED of themselves, while 60 Minutes reporters try to explain “There’s nothing to be ASHAMED of!”

Maybe those people don’t have anything to be ashamed of, but there’s plenty of shame to go around in America. Not for them, certainly, but those who created their conditions, enabled their SHAME, and for the rest of us who watch comfortably on the teevee and do (something).

Which goes back to a question I had earlier: how do we discredit the ridiculous coverage the media deigns to give to the Occupy Movement, etc? I keep thinking of that photo of the swells waving from the balcony of Cipriani down on Wall Street while the Occupiers marched below.

Sadly yes, sadlyyes.

“The bad guys won’t leave without violence.” Not always. MLK and Gandhi showed that if your struggle has a deep moral basis and that your opposition aren’t Nazis or hardcore Fascists ( who will just round you all up and put you in camps or kill you), then you have a chance. I don’t think the Aryan Bros. or the KKK has complete control of the GOP quite yet. When that happens it’s Civil War time and we’ll all know it. So, I respectfully disagree Ted, we can win this if we make it a Moral/Spiritual based/ centered struggle. Certainly saving humanity by saving the Planet fits that kind of struggle, don’t you agree?

Oh, there simply is no way to know. It’ll seem inevitable afterwards, as RFK said. Until then, impossible.

No, WE have something to be ashamed of.

Not to mention Mr. Cain. Odd, that his sexual harassment of women wasn’t a problem to the MSM, but a consensual affair was. I’m confused.

How do we promote critical thinking in this country? It’s a question that I see rarely addressed and maybe you, like me, haven’t given much thought. Any ideas?

Ted, I don’t disagree that it’s already underway, but far far worse lays right ahead. Even at that remember much of the present generation has NO memory of what the Planet was like prior to the warming. To them and the generation being born into it this will all seem like normal since they don’t any different.

I agree that Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi did make changes, but they were reformist changes. They were not revolutions. In both cases, the rich remained rich and the poor remained poor. In India, for example, the caste system remains in place today. He did not reorder society. And I really think that that’s what we need at this point. I really don’t think that a moral/spiritual struggle has the ability to take power and hold quickly enough in order to change things the way that we need them to be changed.

i was in France in April,at the street markets,when market is over…they LEAVE the unsold produce,in boxes,on sidewalk,for the poorer

More money to public education? I make myself laugh!

Hey really excellent question. I really feel that the educational system has let us down. It has moved to the right, and has largely become a vehicle for training kids to take tests so that they can fit into the Brave New World order of the American corporate office, assuming that anyone is willing to hire them.

I certainly learned some critical thinking from in school back in the 1970s and 80s, but I think the system has become so stuck that it just isn’t allowed anymore. Obviously there are exceptions. But that’s not the rule.

Yes, it’s taking place too slowly.

The best example of the ability of corporate media to destroy a candidate who would actually work to improve the lot of the 99% is what they did and continue to do to Ralph Nader.

That will destroy everything! Kill humanism!

Finnians Rainbow ws on tee bee,the other day,the southern Senator,forbade the word college ,to be said in his presence… a sad comedy directed by 29 yr old Coppola

This IMO would require a major attitude and world view change on the part of the people.

Not simply a situation of “change it so I don’t get screwed.”

Ok, then name me one violent Revolution that hasn’t ended in something even worse? Ours was more of an anti-colonial revolt then a true Revolution. The elite here just got rid of the King and grabbed the power.

Yes. From Ralph Nader to Howard Dean to George McGovern to John Edwards and on and on and on, the American political landscape is littered with the desiccated carcasses of people who actually meant well, and might actually have delivered something meaningful that would have made our lives a little better.

Can’t have that.

hahahaha,i took pictures,what a delightful place,not perfect,but it made me feel HAPPY

Hey, at least the French have okay health care…

Sort of like your actions will define you rather than your words. You’ve got to admit that Obama does give good rhetoric, just like Clinton.

Revolution is always the absolute last ditch effort, a Hail Mary pass, something that you only do when reformism is no longer feasible. I don’t believe reformism is feasible anymore. However, others will disagree. To answer your question, there have been only violent revolution’s. No revolution has ever been nonviolent. That said, the French Revolution took over 100 years to settle out, but without it, it’s hard to imagine the idea of a Equality as the dominant political ideology of the West ever emerging. During times of crisis I think it is absolutely essential to try to enforce change no matter what happens.

It end with something worse because those in the so called revolution were only concerned about what they would get out of it, not anyone much else. And in a way where they did not have to make any change and/or sacrifice.

And they have employment contracts so you can’t be fired because some boss doesn’t care for the cut of your jib.

Who’s arguing?

I can’t argue with that. It’s no surprise though, our Gov’t has been deeply anti-change since the late 40′s and before. Prior to Roosevelt we used our Marines to bully most of the countries in this hemisphere and we’ve returned to that kind of reactionary policy these days. Making the World safe for Corporatism is our policy and it’s in high gear everywhere,especially here!

Speaking of which, do you have an opinion on the SCOTUS decision on ACA, Ted?

/ducks under desk

i have partaken,very good,and Dental visits extremely affordable

They probably have XE/Blackwater, or whatever they’re calling themselves today, on speed dial.

all the more reason ,they are dangerous to the 99%

http://austinist.com/2012/06/27/texas_republican_party_seeks_ban_on.php

“…the Republican Party of Texas recently published its party platform, a report that – among other things – calls for a ban on teaching critical thinking skills in Texas schools because of its “focus on behavior modification” that has “the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.” “

But imagine a world where no revolution had ever happened? Imagine the French Revolution had never happened, the American Revolution never happens, no one ever rose up to challenge the British monarchy and create the Magna Carta, and every other quest for freedom that has ever happened. We would be still living in a land of slavery. Things would be infinitely worse than they are now. I can’t imagine why anyone would question the importance and necessity of revolution in order to improve our lives.

Fear is a remarkable motivator. Fear of change even more so.

Ted you know what Chinese PM Chou Enlai said when asked by a western reporter , ” what did he think about the French Rev.? He said, ” The jury is still out on that one.” I think he was right. Revolution is the very last place we want to go. How we get out of the ditch were in now though is definitely got most of us scratching our heads.

Well, I do think that the right-wingers were right about Obamacare violating the interstate commerce clause. I do think that Justice Roberts made a political decision. Not that it’s the first time. I would like to think that this is only the beginning, and we will eventually get single-payer or at least a public option, but I am really worried that people will say, this is good enough. The one thing I really don’t understand is why Obama allowed this thing to take effect after he might not win reelection. Seems like an extreme case of political malpractice to me. But, we will see what we will see.

No doubt. I’m scared too.

Perhaps even then. Prescott Bush instructed Eisenhower to “select” Richard Nixon as his VP, and he did.

It seems a “moral/spiritual” struggle needs to be at the heart of a real revolution if we are to get better outcomes for the majority of people.

Glenn Greenwald recently gave a speech in which he talked about the loss of freedoms and level of fear which most Americans are now living under and many are completely unaware of it. See Kevin’s post:

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/07/01/glenn-greenwald-on-challenging-the-surveillance-state/

So, the question is, how can we wake people up?

I have often wondered aloud whether Obama was ever concerned with winning reelection. But then again, I suppose I’m “unhinged.”

Oh I am not questioning them at all or what we got out of them. it just seems terribly inefficient to have to do them all over again every 100 years or so.

But maybe the agenda itself in each case was not a complete change but a modification of the system.

Like fairer beatings applied to all or less bloody executions or some such.

okay WT,opened the door,did ya see this?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/01/paul-ryan-repeal-health-law-because-rights-come-from-god/

Mike Judge must be banging his forehead on his desk.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

harking back to the education thread, fourth try:

from the austinist.com
The Republican Party of Texas’ party platform calls for a ban on teaching critical thinking skills in Texas schools because of its “focus on behavior modification” that has “the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

Obviously, we need a news media outlet, or more than one news media outlet, that somehow catches the public’s attention, and changes everything. I have an idea for such a thing, but I don’t have the start-up capital to make it happen, which really wouldn’t be that much money. I feel that with $3-$5 million, some rich liberal could start the awesomenest kickass news site ever. But who knows whether we’ll ever see such a thing.

According to the Huffington Post:

Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.) said Thursday that the Supreme Court’s decision to uphold the constitutionality of President Barack Obama’s health care law means progressive lawmakers won’t be pushing for a single-payer option anymore, though the concept will live on in their minds. The idea of a single-payer option, such as a Medicare-for-all approach to health care, will continue to be “a fundamental political point that we all support,” said Grijalva, co-chairman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. “But the reality of what just happened today probably puts the emphasis on making the law work as opposed to trying to get a new plan.”

So, don’t expect the Democratic party or the supposed “progressives” of the party to champion a single payer system.

No one really knows what is inside Obama’s head, but all the evidence suggests that he really does want to win reelection. However, I don’t really know why he even wanted to be president in the first place. I mean, if I became president tomorrow, I have a long list of things I’d like to do. But Obama seemed to just be figuring it out as soon as he came in. It’s not like he had a real ideological agenda. It seems that his mission was accomplished as soon as he took the oath of office, and now it’s all about convincing us to let us continue to live at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

It’s waking people up to the idea of solidarity with other people–when even the very poor are soporized by Gameboys and the free apps–that is the challenge. Not even most liberals know enough to recognize what unions (for example) meant in this regard.

Funny, I thought our rights came from the Constitution.

One of my favorites.

So, Ted, since you brought up the media. What is your take on Sorkin’s “The Newsroom?” Is it reinforcing the present problem or suggesting what your suggesting?

rotf

And here we go again.

Never saw it, only read about it. I hate to indulge in the Bob Dole School of Film Criticism, where I have opinions about films I haven’t seen.

But he was so cool-headed and intellectual! Surely he must have had something up his sleeve…

Turns out it was his arm.

just…….oy

I can’t afford HBO.

Awesome dialog here! What do you think of the future of Occupy?

A friend once observed that people won’t revolt until things get so bad that misery over the present overcomes fear of the unknown. What happens then is unpredictable, but in Egypt it doesn’t seem to have mattered much yet.

Unless the American people get a LOT smarter, then the probable outcome of a true revolution here might not be pretty. The violence would be initiated by the governing elites who have the most to lose. The country might splinter. I live in the Deep South and the people here would likely opt for a fascist police state while convincing themselves that they are the most free people on Earth. 90% of the wealth would be controlled by less than 1% of the people. The white have-nots would blame all their misery on powerless liberals and black people. Just something to consider. Maybe the answer is becoming very wealthy and buying your own island like Larry Ellison.

quaint !

Ted what do think will happen if Willard and the Regressives get back into power?

Reader poll:
(A) Voting for Obama
(B) Voting for Obama but joining street protests
(C) Voting for Romney
(D) Voting for Romney but joining street protests
(E) Third party
(F) Boycotting voting
(G) Other (explain)

Even after the French Revolution championed the concept of Egalite, they couldn’t tolerate the slave revolt in Haiti and sent troops to quash it.

Nope, it was the scheisspfeiffer :)

I live in Louisiana, but I often think that Lincoln made a mistake in not letting the South go.

F. I don’t legitimize evil.

E

Just more proof of how broken this system is.

Well, as a certain Frenchman who visited the United States during the 1820s and 1830s wrote, the American people need to get a lot more sophisticated and better educated before they will be able to realize the true promise of democracy. Clearly, we are not there. Education is the key, and I don’t mean what you learned in school. It’s up to us to spread the good word of democracy and freedom and justice and socialism and everything else that’s good out there.

E.

Voting my conscience.

No one really knows what will happen with the occupy movement at this stage. I don’t like the July 4 thing in Philadelphia at all, seems like a total co-option by MoveOn.org.

It may well turn out that occupy turns out to be like the free speech movement in Berkeley of the early 1960s, events that presaged a lot of more radical, more important movements, but isn’t itself able to metastasize into something bigger and more popular and therefore more threatening to the system. All we can really do is understand that the streets are where it’s at.

F

The South’s revolution of 1861 had the ironic effect of ending slavery in this country.

I thought Arianna had already done that for us.

True. But the Revolution inspired the Revolt. That counts. Ideas win.

The ACA is a pitiful attempt at “reform” that addresses health insurance without effectively impacting health care. Single-payer and/or Medicare for all will only be achieved through a revolutionary change to the system.

Here Here !!

Ha!

C,any Dems who survive,need to be opposition,again

(G) Taking to the streets and overturning two-party system and replacing it with a parliamentary one

Interesting results

The implementation of that platform was partially accomplished with NCLB, and ensured the creation of more unquestioning cannon fodder for the war machine.

(H) Waking up tomorrow as King of the World.

Is that snark?

I almost hated to reference the Huffington Post as it is such a compromised website. But, I wanted to give credit to the original source of information (which I only visited briefly due to a link).

i wish,you are a benevolent dictator

Arianna will look great at her show trial. Jurors will be unpaid bloggers.

You forgot to hit the “all caps” key.

who sadly can not balance their checkbooks…sigh

But you still wind up with the problem of those in the cities – where most of the poverty is – and those in the more rural/suburban areas – where there is less poverty of a different type – having a different view and/or agenda.

This makes any revolution/major change much more difficult to achieve.

That problem has always faced every revolutionary.

F – George Carlin.

yes….sigh

Thank you for mentioning the unions. Despite their troubled history, the creation of the middle class is really owed to the wage standards set by organized labor. The decline of the middle class is following the decline of labor unions. The Democratic Party is moving rightward because of the decline of labor unions. Right-to-work laws really ought to be illegal and are allowed by amendments made to Taft-Hartley in 1949.

E… And in the Streets…! ;-)

The reinstatement of slavery was Napoleon’s doing. The revolutionary government was obliged to free the slaves of Saint-Domingue under pressure from the slaves themselves, some of whom had already been set free, and from the British and the Spanish, who were at war with France at the time. When Napoleon took over France, he reinstated slavery and sent an army to Saint-Domingue in 1802, which ravaged the colony for two years until it was finally expelled and it declared its independence as Haiti.

Least we forget, She was always a Republican,

The one thing I really don’t understand is why Obama allowed this thing to take effect after he might not win reelection.

The Rs offered 2012, he countered with 2014.

At least you’re getting more points of view at the table. What we have now is the “mirror” routine from “Duck Soup”.

Taft-Hartley in 1949.

its passing dealing a mortal blow to American workers

Wen the lives of those in the cities and those in the country and those in suburbia suck equally, we win.

The don’t teach good at Columbia or Harvard.

Not even close. HuffPost is quick to ban those that post facts that don’t conform to those catapulted by corporate media.

Obama should demand repeal.

At least THAT was entertaining. This is just depressing.

didnt know that….

Ted,

Where do you see those of us that realize what is happening in DC in the next four years? Is the police state/militarization supposed to keep the people down and silent?

That is true, but when the French left Haiti, USA, Inc. was quick to step in and fill the role of oppressor nation.

i just snorted my ice tea up me nozzzzze

Ted:
Would it be possible for you to make some cartoon about the so called liberals or democrats and about their delusions

http://www.rall.com

Do them almost every week!

True.

ya know that would be a great write in

The first military engagements of the American Revolution began in rural “Lexington/Concord”. I think it’s more about belief systems than location.

It is interesting to note, Ted, that “capitalism”, a “change” from feudalism, is a product of the French revolution, as well.

As we are herded toward a neo-feudalism, we might ponder upon that “result”.

Until civil societies are prepared to protect themselves from the predations of sociopaths, and understand why that is necessary, there can be no meaningful “advance”.

DW

Your vast knowledge base never ceases to delight me.

However, the B-school does preach the goodness of greed.

;~DW

Yes yes.

Partly.

(E), or write-in if no appropriate third-party makes it on to the ballot in my state. Think the Greens have a spot, not sure.

Get yourself a copy of Eduardo Galeano’s “Open veins of Latin America”. It’s a real eye-opener.

Ted, in your discussion of the Occupy Movement, you assert that the OWSers must “broaden their appeal”. How do you get across to the cop who’s swinging the baton that you’re fighting for THEIR pensions?

I would like to see a cartoon character of a liberal democrat with talk vs actions (Schumer, Nancy, Boxer (Senator from Nevada) list goes on)on various issues. Something like Doonesbury.

Ted, I live in Bellingham. What did you think of the city of subdued excitement?

You don’t. They may be member of the 99%, but they’re agents of the 1%.

Excellent Question!

Well, there is no market for new comic strips.

Loved it! I could live there.

I think he just got thoroughly disgusted, clearly saw what was coming, and decided to bail.

That was hilarious. I’m still looking for the snark tag.

Ah yes, Ted, which “side” will the police and military, ultimately, come “down” on?

That is a question few wish to consider, though it were wise to do so.

DW

That could be a challenge for you. Just an idea. like Dilbert

but im alredy depressed…more reality………..oy

Until the revolution, the police will side with the authorities, as they are trained to do. After, they will join the resistance. The people will pretend not to remember, or notice.

Dilbert would never sell now. Newspapers won’t buy strips, and websites won’t buy cartoons.

Yep, Jamie Dimon will always keep them employed, I suppose. I do so enjoy the way Chase has walled off its “public space” under the auspices of “waterproofing the plaza”. Mind you, there hasn’t been one worker on that plaza for months now.

Cartooning is pretty much dead.

ive posted many times the pic,with him and Sasha,in the supposed Gulf,after the SPILL,that was it for me!

The Job Creator!

Eggs-actly just like the old Timex tagline; Takes a Licking but Keeps on Ticking…! ;-)

I consider that you are correct, Ted, what of the military … that might be the larger concern?

DW

I think though what is require is a consensus among the population for real change to happen and become permanent. Like women wearing slacks or repeal of the death penalty or a number of other things we now take for granted.

A spiritual/moral/ethical education as well as intellectual one.

and NYPD cops patrol the underground lobby.

I am surprised and disappointed that such great minds have chatted away these two hours. I really expected a WT/Rall joint to produce an action plan, an address to write for protest signs, a place to meet tomorrow, do-it-yourself guillotines and banker-squashers, a newer, fairer tax code and a Gay Marriage or two.

You call yourselves revolutionary leaders? Call me when you’re really ready.

(Thanks much to you both, this was simply swell….)

And more is the pity … along with irony and satire, not to mention “nuance”.

DW

Ted,

Until the revolution happens do you see Americans pulling away from the system and creating their own society and way of dealing with lack of income and food safety?

Yes, we can’t win without them.

As we come to the end of this interesting Book Salon discussion,

Ted, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book and our future political actions.

Watertiger, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon.

Everyone, if you would like more information:

Ted’s website (TedRall) and book

Watertiger’s website (Dependable Renegade)

Thanks all, Have a great week and Holiday.

If you would like to contact the FDL Book Salon: FiredoglakeBookSalon@gmail.com

All those repo men wouldn’t have jobs if it weren’t for Jamie Dimon!

Which is a problem, since they are so reactionary.

Thank, you Bev, and watertiger, and everyone else. Great discussion!

Well, I guess that speaks volumes about our media if there is no longer room for a new comic strip. Haven’t comics provided laughs, information, and a way to “lighten” an issue when needed for centuries?

Is there one main source on the internet for political comics or just comic strips in general?

Are you allowed to bust our guts like that, Teddy?

I just snorted muh iced tea and frightened the cats!

;~DW

That is do to the constraints we on the left have put on our actions. Boxed our selves in by insisting on always being somewhat compliant.

Thank you, Ted. ::big smile::

Agreed. Everything Obama has done has been half-assed. Even his first law was a joke on working women. The Lilly Ledbetter law should have made everything clear. As it is now, a new employee has to find proof within their probation period, (90 Days) that the males employed are making more. How exactly does one do that? It’s a JOKE!

I’m only able to read non-fiction these days when I sandwich it between large portions of Sci-Fi/Fantasy because of that. I had to read massive quantities of fiction to compensate for works by Galeano, John Perkins, and Naomi Klein.

Aw, dang, it’s over already?

Thank you SO much, Ted, for being here. And thank you to everyone here at FDL who participated or even lurked.

Power to the people! I hope!

Thanks so much Ted. I don’t always agree with you but am always informed and entertained.

Thank you, Ted and watertiger, a fantastic fine Book Salon!!!

Thank you, Bev, as always.

And continuing appreciation to all you Firedogs.

Ted, you come back again soon, you hear?

;~DW

Ted, I’ve read many of your columns. Thank you for making so many good points over the years.

Mahalo Nui Loa, Ted, Watertiger, and Bev, for another awesome book salon…!

Remember always to ‘Think Globally and Act Locally’…!

His impassioned Senate speech against the retroactive immunity for telecoms prior to his vote for it was enough for me. It was reinforced by his campaign promise to surge in Afghanistan.

poor kid

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/upload/2010/08/obama_and_sasha_swim_near_the/20100815_obamaswimswithsasha_560x375.jpg

All in a mere 2 hour book salon, Teddy…? ;-)

And O’s favorite bankster.

I am ashamed.

/chastened

Came late to the discussion.

Thanks Ted, watertiger, Bev.

And many thanks to the excellent commenters.

econo @ 187: best line of the day, lol

enjoying the discussion with you, Ted. did you learn anything that surprised you about “O.”?

That’s only happening in Latin America these days, where they’re intelligent enough to repudiate the US system of repression.

And, I used to get them on MyYahoo.com

thanks to all you truth seekers,you light up my life

Thanks to Ted, watertiger, Bev, and the rest of you who commented. It’s been an enjoyable 2 hrs.

(F) Boycotting (presidential) voting

(G) write in none of above

FL “black box” (privatized, computerized) result just hasn’t been announced yet tho it’ll be around 50.49% in favor of “winner”
and write ins won’t be tallied.

What Teddy said at @233. This book salon was a waste of time.

Your expectations are unreasonable.

I concur…F” em all. November 6 seems like a good day for the start of the General Election Strike!